On fairness

[Bloodscream]

Once my gear reaches a certain level I stop really caring. Right now I just need an off hand weapon and new boots...the rest is gravy.

As for the belief that the better geared players should feel a degree of responsibility to helping the less fortunate.
I always thought so but perhaps I'm just old school.

I got everything I ever wanted out of Karazhan two months into running it  with the A team. We then split into two teams and I continued to tank Karazhan everyweek, top to bottom, for no other reason than getting other people gear.
There were no badges then. Several months of running Kara for no personal gain. I didn't do it for shits and giggles, I did it out of a sense of helping everyone who wasn't on the A team get geared. I assume everyone else on the A team did the same since I recall them being there every week too.

[Guest]

[Edited] This wall o' text is most definitely not to close off discussion just to put in writing how I felt this evening when writing it/

I know I missed Karazhan when there was great deal of ruckus. Certainly there are people who remember the first few months of Kara as a cluster-fuck of unfairness.  The current situation isn't exactly the same as Karazhan - then there was no alternative, everyone *had* to go to Kara to get the gear necessary to go on to Mag, and Gruul, SSC, Tk, and BT so the entire guild's 25 man progression was on hold until people had all been through it several times - and then it continued until the end of TBC because there were always new players and new alts that needed gear and then there were badges. These days we have 25 mans that we bring undergeared people along with because we want to do 25 mans, and we don't consistently have our 25 "top" players. Newcomers get to go because our attendance is low. Newcomers can get raiding gear just by running daillies. Aquizit was running Naxx and then Ulduar 10 mans on the weekend to help people gear up. I was around but never went because there were always plenty of people. I intend to continue running ToC 10 mans on the weekend when possible for the odd 232 piece and badges.

10 man hard-modes is what the current discomfort stems from - work done outside of core raid hours, and the same content, just harder. Gearwise for each class there *are* probably one or two pieces that can drop that are BiS - by how much I don't know but yeah, BiS. A second 10 man team is forming/has formed which, given the membership, will hopefully provide more people access to achievements that are unlikely to be seen by our 25 man efforts.

The potential DKP issue aside (which I am looking into, to be sure), I don't see the two situations (Kara and current 10 man teams) as being on the same scale of unfair. No one is held back from 25 man raiding by either of those two 10 man teams. Occasionally we don't have even 17 people show up so 25 mans can't happen. In that case probably only one or two of those present are not already locked or going to be locked to one of the ten man raids. In that case, yes, one or two people showed up to raid and don't get to because that would screw up the raid of 8 other people. Is that grossly less fair than having 27 show up and two having to sit out? I don't think so.

I think that with two 10 man teams the vast majority of players will get as much raiding in as they commit to. When we are talking about juggling the priorities, lives, schedules and preferences of nearly 40 people I honestly think we are doing a pretty decent job - not perfect, I admit - but we cannot be perfect, solving one problem for one person creates a problem for another.

That being said I always want to hear from you - and if you think I am douche then talk to Syreena or one of the other officers or Harbingers - that is what they are there for.

That that being said I have two things that I want to try and do aside from  the normal things - take some more people through ToGC 10, and see how many people we can get the Glory of the Raider achievement on back is Naxxramas because more of us deserve The Undying title.

[Bloodscream]

To be clear, I in no way was trying to compare whatever current situation we're having with Karazhan and the then A Tea.

I was merely illustrating in details, that when it comes to helping other people get geared, I don't stand on the side lines and bitch.
I put my money where my mouth was and acted.

[Greebo]

I was merely illustrating in details, that when it comes to helping other people get geared, I don't stand on the side lines and bitch.
I put my money where my mouth was and acted.

Understood. Many people ran Karazhan several dozens of times past the best-by date - I was not one of those people, I always got value out of it whether experience or badges.  The question is - given 10 man weekend raids most weekends, access quite often to current 25 man raiding, and given the amazing gear you get from badges - is the current system stopping someone from doing 25 mans with us? Am I as a raid leader and we as guild officers providing sufficient opportunity to someone who wants to raid 25 mans the ability to take their fresh 80 or their 6 month LoA or 1 year LoA and get them to an acceptable gear level? It took me two months or more of Kara (and Mag and Grul once we had them on farm) (Feb 4 to April or later) to get my gear to a point were I was a small enough hindrance that I could fill in a spot when one was free bringing my awesome 600 dps. I don't get the impression that new people are joining our merry little band of troubadors are not able, after some effort, to come along to our raids.

[Bloodscream]

Bottom line is, time.
With the new badges raining down from the sky. I have found time to get dressed in all the epic badge gear.
Now fact, my main hand weapon is from TOC25 and without that I would be stuck using my #16 axe in my main hand and probably #19 or 20 in the offhand.

Would that be enough to go raiding? Well sure just don't expect me to be the linchpin massive dps
You need a couple piece of raid gear to start being effective. Now that #7 or #9 chest piece that no one else wants... well you should quickly find yourself in debt, dkp wise.

Then you'll need to put in the hours to pay off what you have so yes, other people will have priority over you for that #1 BIS item and you'll have to suck up watching it go by.
In time, everything will level out.

I think you're beating your head against a wall on this one Greebs. Any way you slice it, those with less time, be it to run heroics for badges or raid late at night, will always have less than those with more time and you are not going to find some magic recipe to solve that. It is what it is... Shit I even managed to scrape up a tanking set that will shortly be all epics, over 570 defense and 35k hit points, that's using 0 dkp.

Can I tank Saurfang? No probably not but I could certainly raid in that outfit.
The rest is gravy and when Apocalypse comes out, you'll be getting all new gear anyways so why get all excited?

[ulgrath]

hmm life isnt fair.  I heard this alot growing up and its still true. 

That being said I guess it depends on the way the guild is going.  Its an rp guild first and always.  then what is it a family friendly guild or a hard core raiding guild or a pvp guild.  I dont think you can be all three.  When I started with a few friends into the grim it was a family friendly guild.  since that time it has seemed to move more into a raiding guild.  Now a transition back? 

Now that I am able to get into raids with my work schedule I have been working my booty off to get the gear to be able to go.  for those who have seen ulgraths gear score change in 3 or 4 days by tons of points I think I have now spent over 300 badges of triumph and I dream about 5 man pugs.  and I still have more to go a few more pieces to buy for my tank spec.  then oh yea another 400 points of gear to buy for my dps spec. 

So whats fair.  No clue to be honost do you only take the top dps people. 

I would say no because this just limits out the number of people you are running with.  think about it your best geared people are going to be your top dps'ers right? well then they get better geared and those who couldnt go before sure as hell cant go now. 

But you need a core group of people who know the fights and can teach the new people who are trying.... now should you let the people who are raiding in greens go probably not there has to be some effort out side the raid to gear up.  but if the effort is there these people should have a chance to raid. 

look if someone gets booted during raid day one maybee they should be out for the week unless someone bails but garenteed a spot the following week.  the only reason I am saiying the following week not raid day is so that whoever took thier spot gets to see both 1/2s of the raid and they get to go thru both halves of the next raid the following week.

well thats my 2 and 1/2 cents see you all online

[Sanuye]

As a general rule i agree life is not fair.  And someone is always going to be unhappy.  That being said I feel the guild has taken a turn for the worse. When Ulg and i joined several years back this was a family oriented guild. Now I feel we a turning into a hard core raiding guild.  I know that many have said that the best geared should go. To a certain extent i can understand this but if the others have done a lot to try and get to where they need to be shouldn't they have a chance? Otherwise the geared are just going to get more geared and the under dogs won't have a chance. I think there should be some sort of rotation going on there.  Now take me for instance. I know my dps isn't here is should be. I have read forum after forum and talked to many people and am working VERY HARD to get to where i should be. However sometimes it's a matter of i have a two year old in my lap. I'm sorry but im not going to tell her no you cant have any of my attention, I'm playing a video game. Sorry I love you all but I love her more. So sometimes there is more going on then just a person not preforming where you think they should be. Thanks for listening

[Muatah]

Since the dissolution of our raiding alliance with First Light(the last several months, more or less) usually one, often two, and sometimes all three raids have been cancelled due to lack of numbers. Heck, Wednesdays lately more often than not have turned into "screw around on alts" nights. I'm not sure I understand where the sentiment comes from that seems to think there are people who are ready and willing to go but are not allowed to. Quite a few seem to have it floating around in their craniums. We need people to show up. Not desperately(we aren't that Hardcore), but fairly seriously. Be there, and chances are good you are coming along.

That being said, more and more Blizzard seems to be falling in love with the "random-important-thing-potentially-happening-to-anyone-in-the-raid" encounter design. In most every encounter I have seen in ICC, it is *necessary* that every raid member knows what to do when "random event X" occurs to themself or someone else, and be able to react quickly and without being told. If people don't? We get to wipe and try again. With a limited amount of attempts on the End Bosses of the Wings thrown in for S & Gs.

Not to mention the flat gear checks. I sometimes get the feeling that some wonder why I get annoyed watching people pass on gear upgrades when we are doing ToC/Ony/whatever. Festergut/Putricide/Rotface/Lanathel...even Saurfang to a lesser degree(*much* lesser degree than Festergut) are straight-up gear checks. No holds barred. Patchwerk on crack and listening to "Rollin rollin rollin" by Limp Bizkit as they smash in your face. Don't have the gear for it? You aren't winning. It's as simple as that.

[Frygyd]

Since the dissolution of our raiding alliance with First Light(the last several months, more or less) usually one, often two, and sometimes all three raids have been cancelled due to lack of numbers.

Do we need to seek another alliance for 25's?

Seems the two 10's are filled up. Not sure we can get another 10 going but I'm not in one yet and our up and coming mage Alirah is on the side lines for 10's as well.

[Greebo]

For the two or three months that we had regular and good FL attendance it worked very well. If anyone knows of an RP-friendly, no-jumping, 10 man raiding guild that is looking to step up - do tell me. On a side note someone I met from Vindicatus in a PuG said that Vesh was taking an extended break from WoW.

As for a third 10 man - I know that Ulgrath and Sanuye are trying to get one going on Tuesday/Thursday before the big raids. There may be less emphasis on full attendance there.

[Thellash]

I guess I'll toss in my two cents worth.

I don't raid all that often anymore, I used to raid 3-4 nights a week in TBC, and when WotLK came out as well.  I got burned out, and wanted to slow down before RL started to suffer.  I really enjoy being able to raid, but now that comes secondary to, as Khorshah put it, adult responsibilities.  I recognize that I raid sproradically, therefore I only think that it is fair that I be picked last for raids when we have enough people.  Even when I do show up.

I don't think that it's fair of me to go afk in the middle of a raid for about 10 minutes each night.  So I almost never sign up unless I know I won't have to.  I am often online during raiding times, but not raiding because of this.  I am always open to helping out in any way I can, but raiding will NEVER be more important than IRL.