This is an open thread to discuss the thoughts that people are having about our raiding, especially in view of the fact the First Light as guild no longer really exist and so we are thrown back to our own resources. From an IC perspective we always knew this would be the case. From an RL perspective it is something of a blow because at the height of our success with them we downed Mimiron, Vezax, and Yogg-Saron with an ease and skill which made me as proud to play with all of you as when we downed Vashj and Kael'thas.
Some people are telling me that they don't think that is fair that they commit to a raid during our normal schedule and cannot raid because it would interfere with other people's non-core raiding.
Some people are telling me that they want to raid - and that the lack of commitment and attendance means they need to sit and wait for others to make up their mind.
If we had 25 people every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday I would not consider it an issue, all of us could raid during our core hours as much as we wanted and be free the rest of the week. But we don't - and despite that we need to live in tightly-knit little world and get along with one another.
I need you to speak to me. I need to hear your thoughts on what is fair - indeed on how much fairness is appropriate. If we had more than 30 people showing up to raid there would definitely be some people who were left out more often than not - is that more fair than the current situation? Why or why not? Post here, or PM me - if you do send me a message let me know if you want your thoughts anonymized and then re-posted here.
On fairness
On fairness
Grisbault, Twice-Made.
The p, s, l, and t are silent, the screams are not.
The p, s, l, and t are silent, the screams are not.
Re: On fairness
I need you to speak to me. I need to hear your thoughts on what is fair - indeed on how much fairness is appropriate. If we had more than 30 people showing up to raid there would definitely be some people who were left out more often than not - is that more fair than the current situation? Why or why not? Post here, or PM me - if you do send me a message let me know if you want your thoughts anonymized and then re-posted here.
Im current unable to raid due to an intensely busy schedule, especially around the later hours of the night, so I feel a bit hypocritical for now.
Anyways, the top 25 should always be taken. The best roles must be filled in order to progress. It's also the overly geared player's responsibility to ensure that the less geared eventually become geared enough for the top level of progression. That's how a guild works. And while I doubt it would be a serious problem with the Grim, the most geared need to feel a sense of responsibility to help undergeared players, not a sense of charity.
P.S. When I say we should gear up the less geared, I only consider those who are willing to raid and do the basics. Show up on time, sign up before hand, work to gear themselves when they arent raiding, spend money on enchants and gems, etc. You can get full t9 outside of raiding. I think I collected a full set after 4 days? Sounds right. And our guild isn't so overly geared that all content before Icecrown is obsolete. I'm sure atleast 70% of the Grim could benefit from ToGC
Im current unable to raid due to an intensely busy schedule, especially around the later hours of the night, so I feel a bit hypocritical for now.
Anyways, the top 25 should always be taken. The best roles must be filled in order to progress. It's also the overly geared player's responsibility to ensure that the less geared eventually become geared enough for the top level of progression. That's how a guild works. And while I doubt it would be a serious problem with the Grim, the most geared need to feel a sense of responsibility to help undergeared players, not a sense of charity.
P.S. When I say we should gear up the less geared, I only consider those who are willing to raid and do the basics. Show up on time, sign up before hand, work to gear themselves when they arent raiding, spend money on enchants and gems, etc. You can get full t9 outside of raiding. I think I collected a full set after 4 days? Sounds right. And our guild isn't so overly geared that all content before Icecrown is obsolete. I'm sure atleast 70% of the Grim could benefit from ToGC
Last edited by Tarrus on Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: On fairness
Fair: Anyone who wants to raid should be able to raid.
That said, there is more to 'wanting to raid' than just signing up, or even just showing up. Someone who wants to raid needs to put time in to get gear outside of raid instances (232 and even 245 pieces are readily available through badges). Someone who wants to raid needs to put time into research; research your class, research your spec and rotation and gearing priorities, research the raid fights. Abric said something the other night which struck me as very true: "This is not a game, it is a hobby." And like any hobby, it takes time and work to be good at it. If you don't have time to do the work, or if you don't want to, then you do not want to raid.
Previous to 3.3, gearing up someone new to get to a raid-capable level took significant effort on the part of the more-geared members of the guild. 3.3 has changed the face of the game more than any patch since Wrath's launch, though, and these days you can get gear that will take you into 10 (or even 25-man) raiding rather easily through nothing but badge gear and craftables.
Fair: Nobody who DOESN'T want to raid should have to.
Geared players don't have a responsibility to help less-geared players (and I'll get into what their responsibilities - if you want to call them that - are, later). That's not how the system works; there's no obligation involved. Perhaps the geared player doesn't want to raid tonight; perhaps he doesn't want to raid at all anymore; perhaps he simply doesn't want to raid with you. Speaking as a raid leader, main tank, and occasional healer - and as someone who's been raiding for nearly all of a four-year WoW career - nothing in this game is less fun than wiping on content that has been farm for weeks because you're bringing a raid half full of people who weren't around to learn the fight the first time.
ALL players who want to raid do have a responsibility to get the best gear available to them, to study the strategies ahead of time, and to know their class. The geared players have already done this; they've put in their time, they've gotten the gear, they've learned the strategies, they've wiped on the fights. If an underperforming player isn't willing to do everything possible to prepare, then the geared player has little incentive to lend a hand.
There are exceptions to this rule, as well. Some people simply play critical roles in the raid. If you're not comfortable with the idea that your role will require 90% or better attendance, and with the fact that the raid lead will say 'no, you have to come' when you would rather sit, then don't play that role.
Fair: Even when you want to raid, you still might not get to.
We might have 18 people tonight. We might have 30. Either way, some people are going to sit. For my part, when I'm raid leading I always ask for volunteers to sit out first; I would rather take a 3500-dps player who wants to be there than a 5000-dps player who'd rather be watching a movie tonight, even if it means the fight takes longer. However, it will inevitably happen that someone gets cut, and when it does the underperforming players are going to be the first ones to go. Don't take that as an insult; don't take it personally. Instead identify your problem and work to fix it. With our raiding environment, you will get a chance to go at a later time, and can show off what's improved. That leads me to my last point.
Fair: Guildmates are resources that help you improve outside of raids.
If you're sitting in 232 and 245 epics (that's badge gear these days), and still putting out less than 4k DPS, or can't survive a Meteor Fist, or can't heal the raid through Burning Breath, I can virtually guarantee that you're doing something wrong. We have some fantastic players of all classes in this guild, and the best place they can help you if your performance is low is with advice. I watched Abric shift five talent points around and add 300 DPS on the spot. I've seen players make a small change in their rotation and suddenly jump from dead last on the DPS meter to 7th place. Your gem choices matter. Your talent choices matter. Your rotation matters. Your choices of addons matter, and this is where we get into the responsibilities of the geared players.
If you're being cut consistently, it is the raid leader's responsibility to tell you why*. If your performance is under par, it is the class lead's responsibility to help you identify and solve the problem**. If your gear is simply not up to snuff, it's time to run some heroics. If you're consistently standing in the fire, you need to know that. If you're trying to raid with a PvP spec, then it's time for some changes. Your guildmates are your best resources for that kind of advice. Use them.
Okay, so that got long and rambly, and probably wasn't very to the point. But it does outline a lot of my attitude towards raiding and the 'geared' vs. 'not-geared' and 'attending' vs. 'not attending' debates. Which I think is what Greebo wanted. I don't know. I'm going to work.
* AFTER the raid, people. If you're pestering him while he's still trying to organize his raid, he's likely to start cutting you because you're ANNOYING.
** Unfortunately, some of our classes are under-represented.
That said, there is more to 'wanting to raid' than just signing up, or even just showing up. Someone who wants to raid needs to put time in to get gear outside of raid instances (232 and even 245 pieces are readily available through badges). Someone who wants to raid needs to put time into research; research your class, research your spec and rotation and gearing priorities, research the raid fights. Abric said something the other night which struck me as very true: "This is not a game, it is a hobby." And like any hobby, it takes time and work to be good at it. If you don't have time to do the work, or if you don't want to, then you do not want to raid.
Previous to 3.3, gearing up someone new to get to a raid-capable level took significant effort on the part of the more-geared members of the guild. 3.3 has changed the face of the game more than any patch since Wrath's launch, though, and these days you can get gear that will take you into 10 (or even 25-man) raiding rather easily through nothing but badge gear and craftables.
Fair: Nobody who DOESN'T want to raid should have to.
Geared players don't have a responsibility to help less-geared players (and I'll get into what their responsibilities - if you want to call them that - are, later). That's not how the system works; there's no obligation involved. Perhaps the geared player doesn't want to raid tonight; perhaps he doesn't want to raid at all anymore; perhaps he simply doesn't want to raid with you. Speaking as a raid leader, main tank, and occasional healer - and as someone who's been raiding for nearly all of a four-year WoW career - nothing in this game is less fun than wiping on content that has been farm for weeks because you're bringing a raid half full of people who weren't around to learn the fight the first time.
ALL players who want to raid do have a responsibility to get the best gear available to them, to study the strategies ahead of time, and to know their class. The geared players have already done this; they've put in their time, they've gotten the gear, they've learned the strategies, they've wiped on the fights. If an underperforming player isn't willing to do everything possible to prepare, then the geared player has little incentive to lend a hand.
There are exceptions to this rule, as well. Some people simply play critical roles in the raid. If you're not comfortable with the idea that your role will require 90% or better attendance, and with the fact that the raid lead will say 'no, you have to come' when you would rather sit, then don't play that role.
Fair: Even when you want to raid, you still might not get to.
We might have 18 people tonight. We might have 30. Either way, some people are going to sit. For my part, when I'm raid leading I always ask for volunteers to sit out first; I would rather take a 3500-dps player who wants to be there than a 5000-dps player who'd rather be watching a movie tonight, even if it means the fight takes longer. However, it will inevitably happen that someone gets cut, and when it does the underperforming players are going to be the first ones to go. Don't take that as an insult; don't take it personally. Instead identify your problem and work to fix it. With our raiding environment, you will get a chance to go at a later time, and can show off what's improved. That leads me to my last point.
Fair: Guildmates are resources that help you improve outside of raids.
If you're sitting in 232 and 245 epics (that's badge gear these days), and still putting out less than 4k DPS, or can't survive a Meteor Fist, or can't heal the raid through Burning Breath, I can virtually guarantee that you're doing something wrong. We have some fantastic players of all classes in this guild, and the best place they can help you if your performance is low is with advice. I watched Abric shift five talent points around and add 300 DPS on the spot. I've seen players make a small change in their rotation and suddenly jump from dead last on the DPS meter to 7th place. Your gem choices matter. Your talent choices matter. Your rotation matters. Your choices of addons matter, and this is where we get into the responsibilities of the geared players.
If you're being cut consistently, it is the raid leader's responsibility to tell you why*. If your performance is under par, it is the class lead's responsibility to help you identify and solve the problem**. If your gear is simply not up to snuff, it's time to run some heroics. If you're consistently standing in the fire, you need to know that. If you're trying to raid with a PvP spec, then it's time for some changes. Your guildmates are your best resources for that kind of advice. Use them.
Okay, so that got long and rambly, and probably wasn't very to the point. But it does outline a lot of my attitude towards raiding and the 'geared' vs. 'not-geared' and 'attending' vs. 'not attending' debates. Which I think is what Greebo wanted. I don't know. I'm going to work.
* AFTER the raid, people. If you're pestering him while he's still trying to organize his raid, he's likely to start cutting you because you're ANNOYING.
** Unfortunately, some of our classes are under-represented.
Basic principle: Stay alive! When you die, your DPS is zero.
-
Xondor
Re: On fairness
Life isnt fair and you will never make everyone happy. Decisions cant be based on what makes people happy, it needs to be based on whats right. Id much rather do whats right and piss a bunch of people off than do whats wrong just to appease people.
As far as my opinions:
Unless we have exactly 25 people show up every week it isnt going to be fair to someone. What about the people we cut every week when we had 28-30 people showing up. Those same people are now expected to come in and play since we "need" them but where continually left out before... is that fair? No... but its what had to happen at the time.
If we have less than 25 show up it isnt fair to the 15-22 that do show up that we dont have more dedication from the others and cant run/win because people arent there... at the same time its not fair to expect people to show up every raid when real life is out there doin its thing or people just dont feel like running. So there isnt a "fair" there...
If we decide to not run 25 because we dont have enough it isnt fair that people have to juggle around beause of lockouts on afterhours teams... at the same time it isnt fair that people who want to put in 30 hours of raid time a week and months of effort have to waste their lockouts for people who just want to run once a week when they feel like it. >
If we fail because we have a handful of people performing sub-par it isnt fair to the other raid members who put in the time to learn fights, research specs, farm badges and consumables and perform better... at the same time we are a "casual" raiding guild who doesnt require specs or performance measures or require that extra time put in so people dont need to do that and its not fair to expect them to (i guess).
I dont have any answers because there arent any to be fair... and there arent any that will make everyone happy. We have too diverse a crowd here. We have people who want to show up once a week or every other week and see the new stuff and get their purple shineys. We have people who want to show up 6 days a week and put in crazy hours to achieve end game stuff. We dont have the roster to fill out 25 mans every night... or even most nights... so its impossible to keep up the 25 mans and leave 10 mans to off hours, but at the same time we dont have the time/attendance/teamwork to perform anything other than excessivly casual at 10 mans if it wasnt for the dedicated teams. All of these things are going to make people unhappy and be called "unfair". There is no way to make it anything but that unless we find an extra 10 people laying under a rock somewhere who want to raid. Did someone start looking under rocks?
PS - And nice post Khorsh.
As far as my opinions:
Unless we have exactly 25 people show up every week it isnt going to be fair to someone. What about the people we cut every week when we had 28-30 people showing up. Those same people are now expected to come in and play since we "need" them but where continually left out before... is that fair? No... but its what had to happen at the time.
If we have less than 25 show up it isnt fair to the 15-22 that do show up that we dont have more dedication from the others and cant run/win because people arent there... at the same time its not fair to expect people to show up every raid when real life is out there doin its thing or people just dont feel like running. So there isnt a "fair" there...
If we decide to not run 25 because we dont have enough it isnt fair that people have to juggle around beause of lockouts on afterhours teams... at the same time it isnt fair that people who want to put in 30 hours of raid time a week and months of effort have to waste their lockouts for people who just want to run once a week when they feel like it. >
If we fail because we have a handful of people performing sub-par it isnt fair to the other raid members who put in the time to learn fights, research specs, farm badges and consumables and perform better... at the same time we are a "casual" raiding guild who doesnt require specs or performance measures or require that extra time put in so people dont need to do that and its not fair to expect them to (i guess).
I dont have any answers because there arent any to be fair... and there arent any that will make everyone happy. We have too diverse a crowd here. We have people who want to show up once a week or every other week and see the new stuff and get their purple shineys. We have people who want to show up 6 days a week and put in crazy hours to achieve end game stuff. We dont have the roster to fill out 25 mans every night... or even most nights... so its impossible to keep up the 25 mans and leave 10 mans to off hours, but at the same time we dont have the time/attendance/teamwork to perform anything other than excessivly casual at 10 mans if it wasnt for the dedicated teams. All of these things are going to make people unhappy and be called "unfair". There is no way to make it anything but that unless we find an extra 10 people laying under a rock somewhere who want to raid. Did someone start looking under rocks?
PS - And nice post Khorsh.
Re: On fairness
I agree with what both Korshah and Xondor said.
I love raiding. There is absolutely nothing in this game I enjoy more than wiping on a boss, changing things each wipe, improving each wipe, and then having everything fall into place and getting that mofo down.
When I first started raiding in WoW, that was more important than just about anything else, to the point that I was willing to live with only 2 or 3 hours of sleep multiple times a week. Towards the end of BC, I broke, and quit the game for several months. I came back a bit after WotlK came out because I made a promise to myself I would pursue raiding only if it didn't interfere with my sleep and other IRL factors. My work shifts can happen anytime during a 24hour span. Sometimes I get "normal" 9am-5pm type things, and sometimes I work 9pm-5am. Unfortunately, 5am-1pm is THE most likely shift I have. This month is particularly crappy in that the "I have to be there" time slots are 5am-9am (M-F)and 9pm-1am (Tu and Th). It sucks that I live on the east coast and I should be hitting the sack about the time West coasters are getting home from work. I mostly don't work on the weekends though, but that's when most people prefer to do that real world stuff
Anyway. I realize that my lack of raiding since early December is part of the problem, and my decision to cease actively playing Villayna doesn't help with the tank/healer/dps ratio. I really do wish I could come in here and say "hey, I'm gonna be there 3 days a week every week from here on out!" but I don't plan on quitting my job, and I don't plan on committing to only 3 hours of sleep 3 times a week (once a week is definitely doable, part of having an ever changing shift means the amount of sleep I need can be averaged out over a couple of days with no real repercussions). Let me repeat, I really, really wish I could help more. You guys are awesome, and by far the best group of raiders I've ever raided with.
As for the fair/not fair bit, I can say as someone who use to lead a guild of raiders, that I sympathize with the frustrations of having 50+ people in a guild and having only 17-22 show up. As such I completely surrender myself to the will of the raid leaders as to whether I get to go on raids when I show up and there are too many healers and/or better healers. Is there a part of me that gets cranky when my work schedule is free the next day and I come bouncing into the raid all excited at FINALLY getting to raid only to not get to because everyone happened to show up that day? Sure. But I get over it and go do something else that night. I certainly don't expect to be added to the raid just because I want to be there that night. That isn't fair to the people who do show up every raid.
I love raiding. There is absolutely nothing in this game I enjoy more than wiping on a boss, changing things each wipe, improving each wipe, and then having everything fall into place and getting that mofo down.
When I first started raiding in WoW, that was more important than just about anything else, to the point that I was willing to live with only 2 or 3 hours of sleep multiple times a week. Towards the end of BC, I broke, and quit the game for several months. I came back a bit after WotlK came out because I made a promise to myself I would pursue raiding only if it didn't interfere with my sleep and other IRL factors. My work shifts can happen anytime during a 24hour span. Sometimes I get "normal" 9am-5pm type things, and sometimes I work 9pm-5am. Unfortunately, 5am-1pm is THE most likely shift I have. This month is particularly crappy in that the "I have to be there" time slots are 5am-9am (M-F)and 9pm-1am (Tu and Th). It sucks that I live on the east coast and I should be hitting the sack about the time West coasters are getting home from work. I mostly don't work on the weekends though, but that's when most people prefer to do that real world stuff
Anyway. I realize that my lack of raiding since early December is part of the problem, and my decision to cease actively playing Villayna doesn't help with the tank/healer/dps ratio. I really do wish I could come in here and say "hey, I'm gonna be there 3 days a week every week from here on out!" but I don't plan on quitting my job, and I don't plan on committing to only 3 hours of sleep 3 times a week (once a week is definitely doable, part of having an ever changing shift means the amount of sleep I need can be averaged out over a couple of days with no real repercussions). Let me repeat, I really, really wish I could help more. You guys are awesome, and by far the best group of raiders I've ever raided with.
As for the fair/not fair bit, I can say as someone who use to lead a guild of raiders, that I sympathize with the frustrations of having 50+ people in a guild and having only 17-22 show up. As such I completely surrender myself to the will of the raid leaders as to whether I get to go on raids when I show up and there are too many healers and/or better healers. Is there a part of me that gets cranky when my work schedule is free the next day and I come bouncing into the raid all excited at FINALLY getting to raid only to not get to because everyone happened to show up that day? Sure. But I get over it and go do something else that night. I certainly don't expect to be added to the raid just because I want to be there that night. That isn't fair to the people who do show up every raid.
Last edited by Mortica on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: On fairness
Not on the topic of fairness, but more just musing on what Villy posted...what makes this guild and raid group awesome to be with is that we're all mature people with an interest in things that aren't just being super badass, but it's also what makes it nearly impossible for us to get our shit together regularly--we're (almost all) adults with adult schedules and adult interests and adult responsibilities.
Let the porn jokes commence.
Let the porn jokes commence.
Re: On fairness
I suck di ----Yichimet wrote:
Let the porn jokes commence.
wait, that's not a joke.
Re: On fairness
I haven't been around for awhile partly cause of the holidays but mostly cause I have a girlfriend now. For some reason she seems to want to spend time with me on days we both have off. Strange how women can be so demanding.
We've done this shit in the past and had this discussion many times over. That's just the name of the game. We'll pick up once Cataclysm drops, raid, then die off at the end. Khorshah has said it that peeps should get geared up for the raids. An alt too can't hurt.
We've done this shit in the past and had this discussion many times over. That's just the name of the game. We'll pick up once Cataclysm drops, raid, then die off at the end. Khorshah has said it that peeps should get geared up for the raids. An alt too can't hurt.
[url=http://worldofwarcraft.mmocluster.com/index.php?mod=wowachievement][img]http://worldofwarcraft.mmocluster.com/img_achievements/d2756355cac224e795e55e3f76d977d3.jpg[/img][/url]
Re: On fairness
Hopefully. We had a huge drop-off with Wrath compared to the SSC/TK era.Agrovale wrote: We'll pick up once Cataclysm drops, raid, then die off at the end.
Grisbault, Twice-Made.
The p, s, l, and t are silent, the screams are not.
The p, s, l, and t are silent, the screams are not.
Re: On fairness
I, for one, have found the raids in Wrath boring for a large part. I'm not fond of vehicle combat to start with (which knocks out Maly and opening of Ulduar), Ulduar was also so disjointed that I just never liked the 'story' of it. From what I saw ToGC looked interesting and so had ICC, but that's it. Oh, and Sarth is fun.Greebo wrote: Hopefully. We had a huge drop-off with Wrath compared to the SSC/TK era.
I miss SSC.
[img]http://www.haloandhorns.com/etc/Erzsebet.png[/img]
Re: On fairness
Man, once you got past the first part of Ulduar (and I loved XT and Razorscale too), the raid was glorious. It's the best raid instance I think Blizz has ever put out. Though depending on the last few wings of ICC, we'll see...that one's working pretty hard on my heartstrings too. Doesn't hurt that it's hard.
ToC was a boring loot piñata. So boring. About the only good raid mechanic that came out of it was leeching swarm. But this is all off-topic!
ToC was a boring loot piñata. So boring. About the only good raid mechanic that came out of it was leeching swarm. But this is all off-topic!
Last edited by Yichimet on Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: On fairness
Some basic observations of a good raid.
Know what your members want out of a raid.
1. Fun
2. Instance Practice
3. Achievements
4. Gear
Know what core raid makeup is required to defeat the bosses such as number of tanks, healers and DPS and what manner of DPS is required. If you fail at this people might still have fun and enjoy the instance practice but you might disappoint those that seek the achievement of the win or the gear that comes from a success. It should be stated before a raid what the goal is in order to not disappoint any attending. It may be decided that a raid is being ran that is heavier on carried raiders to give them experience and a win is a secondary or bonus affect of the raid.
Know the minimal gear/skill level and numbers of raid members at this state which can be carried by the raid. This allows the raid leader to set goals for people to reach who wish to get a seat in the raid. If you can afford to carry five raiders at GS 4000 then your pool of persons who have achieved this can rotate in and out of the weekly raids to get their chance at attending until they have the gear/skill to enter the rotation for the core raid makeup.
Bearing this in mind you should also set expectations for a core raider seat on a set instance.
Create threads for each dungeon instance where its requirements and raid makeup can be displayed and its core members can provide feedback for aspiring raiders on what to expect in their roles during this raid and what can help them achieve success. It also provides a platform for would be raiders to post their questions.
Keep a list of the members in the threads who are eligible and wish to attend as core raiders or carried raiders and rotate through these people if multiple people are available to fill their role in the raid. Keep track of who has had a rotation how many times and who has not so that you can provide preference to someone who has not had the chance to attend like others may have. Keep in mind the attendance system is already favoring gear to the person who has been around more so there is no need to penalize the person who cannot be online as often by having them miss a raid when they are available.
Can this all be done on the fly? Yes. But providing visible lists and goals gives the aspiring raider something tangible to work with rather than a "you'll get your turn", more hope that they will get their chance to fulfill their role in the game.
Know what your members want out of a raid.
1. Fun
2. Instance Practice
3. Achievements
4. Gear
Know what core raid makeup is required to defeat the bosses such as number of tanks, healers and DPS and what manner of DPS is required. If you fail at this people might still have fun and enjoy the instance practice but you might disappoint those that seek the achievement of the win or the gear that comes from a success. It should be stated before a raid what the goal is in order to not disappoint any attending. It may be decided that a raid is being ran that is heavier on carried raiders to give them experience and a win is a secondary or bonus affect of the raid.
Know the minimal gear/skill level and numbers of raid members at this state which can be carried by the raid. This allows the raid leader to set goals for people to reach who wish to get a seat in the raid. If you can afford to carry five raiders at GS 4000 then your pool of persons who have achieved this can rotate in and out of the weekly raids to get their chance at attending until they have the gear/skill to enter the rotation for the core raid makeup.
Bearing this in mind you should also set expectations for a core raider seat on a set instance.
Create threads for each dungeon instance where its requirements and raid makeup can be displayed and its core members can provide feedback for aspiring raiders on what to expect in their roles during this raid and what can help them achieve success. It also provides a platform for would be raiders to post their questions.
Keep a list of the members in the threads who are eligible and wish to attend as core raiders or carried raiders and rotate through these people if multiple people are available to fill their role in the raid. Keep track of who has had a rotation how many times and who has not so that you can provide preference to someone who has not had the chance to attend like others may have. Keep in mind the attendance system is already favoring gear to the person who has been around more so there is no need to penalize the person who cannot be online as often by having them miss a raid when they are available.
Can this all be done on the fly? Yes. But providing visible lists and goals gives the aspiring raider something tangible to work with rather than a "you'll get your turn", more hope that they will get their chance to fulfill their role in the game.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/ryayukou/frybanner2_finalcopy-1.jpg[/img]
How cold ... the Frygyd mage ...
How cold ... the Frygyd mage ...
Re: On fairness
The only raid instance I've somewhat enjoyed for WoTLK was the initial stages of ICC. Haven't been that far in yet. Agree with Coy on vehicle combat and Ulduar. ToGC bored the living hell out of me. I miss Kara and SSC for some reason. 10 mans are more enjoyable for me. Hell I miss BC in general but we had more peeps raiding then.
Are we, as Grim, going to do assigned seats for raids for 25 mans, go back down to 10 till we have consistant attendance, or do a first come first serve scenario?
Are we, as Grim, going to do assigned seats for raids for 25 mans, go back down to 10 till we have consistant attendance, or do a first come first serve scenario?
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Re: On fairness
It's only been what...two or so weeks since i last raided with you guys? ^_^" Figured, i'd give my thoughts -
In terms of Fairness -
Honestly, until we can get 25 people that consistently show up for the 25 mans, I'm not entirely sure what the issue would be - Responsibility is to the the core raiding schedule first. Everything else is on the side.
If there aren't 25 people, then whattaya gonna do? 10 mans would be the only way to go till we get the 25 we need (+ any others just in case someone can't make it, etc...) O.o
It's not fair that people who do show up all the time have to sit around with that feeling that, "Tonight is going to be another dud", but until the people are recruited... there's really not much that can be done that will appease everyone.
It's either do 10 mans and pug 25 mans (majority grim raid + mad), or just do 10 mans till more people join in on the fun. Which kind of messes with the other 10 man groups, but as the core raiding days *should* be priority, the groups can benefit from the experience of the others who've already done the 10 man content. And if the desire to continue and succeed is there, then the core raiding days can definitely down whatever they set their eyes on as well.
So...basically, I guess what i'm trying to say is that until we actually have the people to actually start worrying about being fair, it's a wasted luxury (to be fair) as things are when the success of our raids is on the line =\
Probably could step on a few toes! but it's the success of the guild's endeavors we should all be interested in, not the individual raiding groups. When we have more people....then obviously that becomes a non issue xD. After thursday, whoever didn't get saved, have at it. Sucks, but there's no real reason those groups that form after the fact cannot succeed either
In terms of Fairness -
Honestly, until we can get 25 people that consistently show up for the 25 mans, I'm not entirely sure what the issue would be - Responsibility is to the the core raiding schedule first. Everything else is on the side.
If there aren't 25 people, then whattaya gonna do? 10 mans would be the only way to go till we get the 25 we need (+ any others just in case someone can't make it, etc...) O.o
It's not fair that people who do show up all the time have to sit around with that feeling that, "Tonight is going to be another dud", but until the people are recruited... there's really not much that can be done that will appease everyone.
It's either do 10 mans and pug 25 mans (majority grim raid + mad), or just do 10 mans till more people join in on the fun. Which kind of messes with the other 10 man groups, but as the core raiding days *should* be priority, the groups can benefit from the experience of the others who've already done the 10 man content. And if the desire to continue and succeed is there, then the core raiding days can definitely down whatever they set their eyes on as well.
So...basically, I guess what i'm trying to say is that until we actually have the people to actually start worrying about being fair, it's a wasted luxury (to be fair) as things are when the success of our raids is on the line =\
Probably could step on a few toes! but it's the success of the guild's endeavors we should all be interested in, not the individual raiding groups. When we have more people....then obviously that becomes a non issue xD. After thursday, whoever didn't get saved, have at it. Sucks, but there's no real reason those groups that form after the fact cannot succeed either
~Malkaris, The Antediluvian~
Re: On fairness
We did just fine on Tuesday against the most difficult encounter in the first wing of ICC, while missing some of our best geared and most experienced Raiders(Jurani, Yichimet, and Mohan off the top of my head). It just goes to show what we can do when people show up, pay attention, and want to succeed.
The question is, do they/you/we?
I know I do, but that will come as a surprise to absolutely no one, after the last four years. I enjoy the larger Raids, and the last thing I want to see is our 25s nights get fractured up into 10s, or cancelled.
Sometimes this will mean that folks need to show up and do things that they think will be "boring." Did I *really* want to run ToC last night? No, not really. But you know what? It was fun watching our pieced-together group romp through it(albeit slooooowwwwwlllllyyyyyy :P ).
The question is, do they/you/we?
I know I do, but that will come as a surprise to absolutely no one, after the last four years. I enjoy the larger Raids, and the last thing I want to see is our 25s nights get fractured up into 10s, or cancelled.
Sometimes this will mean that folks need to show up and do things that they think will be "boring." Did I *really* want to run ToC last night? No, not really. But you know what? It was fun watching our pieced-together group romp through it(albeit slooooowwwwwlllllyyyyyy :P ).
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"Only in the tales that humans tell do hunters kill the wolves in the end."
"Only in the tales that humans tell do hunters kill the wolves in the end."